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Offline Someone12116

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Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« on: September 22, 2015, 09:42:32 pm »
I have seen a lot of complaints about this from PKers recently. In case you don't know what I am talking about, they are mostly complaining about Dragon Darts, Morrigan's Javelins and Onyx bolts being too powerful. However, I personally do not think that is true.

Let's begin by comparing the highest-hitting Ranged weapons to the highest-hitting Melee weapons. Ranged has Dark Bow, Hunter's Crossbow and Ogre Composite Bow, while Melee has Armadyl Godsword, Dragon Claws, Granite Maul, Dragon Dagger and Vesta's Spear. What is the biggest difference of the Ranged weapons compared to the melee weapons? That's right, their PRICE! There isn't a single Ranged weapon that costs over 10M, while only two of the previously mentioned Melee weapons cost less than 10M. This is what makes people think they are OP: they pack some serious punch for so little cost. In other words, they are way too common.

In addition to this, something like Morrigan's Javelins and Dragon Darts do not even require an actual weapon to use. While it isn't a huge problem with Dragon Darts (they aren't used as a KO weapon, but as weapon for sustained DPS), it becomes a problem with the Javelins. You don't need to invest 50M into the Javelins like you have to invest into an AGS, for example, to get an extremely high-hitting Range KO'er.

Now it's time for the armor. This is a damn no-brainer, to be honest. Fire Cape, Strength Amulet (t), Climber Boots, Red Party Hat VS Ava, Amulet of Ranging, Ranger Boots and Robin Hat. You can get the whole Ranged set for the price of Fire Cape and still have some extra cash left. There is either way too much supply (which I think is the case) or way too little demand on Ranged items. Too much supply is definitely the case for Avas and Ranger Sets: you can, or at least could, get 20+ Avas by simply AFKing Castle Wars over a double ticket weekend, and Ranger Sets are dropped by Black Demons, instead of Kolodion back in Emps-Scape (they are also dropped by Wildy Wyrms, but the number of sets coming from there is only a fraction of what comes from the Black Demons).

Cheap Ranged armor + cheap Ranged weapons = everyone using Ranged, making some people think that Ranged is OP.

My conclusion: something should be done to make Ranged items less common. Sure, it will take a long ass time to actually see a change like this make a difference at this point, but I personally think it's better for the game in the long run.
  • Ranger Boots and Robin Hats should be disposed of the drop tables of Black Demons. They should be kept as rare drops From WildyWyrms and maybe added as rare drops from Chaos Elemental as well
  • Increase the ticket cost of Avas in Castle Wars store, significantly
  • Make Hunter's Crossbow cost more Slayer Points
  • Make Morrigan's Javelins drop in smaller quantities
  • Finally, make Dark Bows more rare from Dark Beast

I will take no part in discussing nerfs/buffs. I will only say that nerfing something because it is OP in Wilderness will ALSO have an effect in PvMing. I do not want to see Ranged becoming completely useless compared to melee against bosses, because of some PKers crying about OP weapons.

Feedback on my feedback is more than appreciated. Oh, and Neptune Ink, this is how you create a proper feedback thread.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 09:44:42 pm by Someone12116 »
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Offline Deandam7

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 10:21:18 pm »
10/10.

This couldn't be any more true. I agree with the bullet point "suggestions" as well, I've obtained over 30 ranger sets from black demons, and it takes 0 effort to kill them. We don't need nerfs, nerfing it isn't the problem, as you've stated range is most favoured because it's a cheap set to use whilst in the wilderness. You're not going to risk a 40M godsword when you can risk a complete set that costs you 15M. I also hope everyone else understands this won't be a quick fix, but it will be more beneficial than just nerfing the range skill completely. Apologies if you think I've just re-stated what you've already said, just wanted to give my opinion too(which is clearly the same as yours).

Top feedback, I also think this wouldn't do any harm in the suggestions board aswell(maybe just make a suggestion topic with the suggestions in it) so that your suggested fixes could be implemented asap.
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Offline Drugs

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 12:16:33 am »
Idk.idh.these."connections".of.thought.after.not.playing.for.3.months.even.more.pking.but..Idk.take.it.how.it.is.

Most.of.the.people.complaining.are.pures.

I.used.to.run.around.wild.rekting.pures.with.addy.gloves.glory.ammy.darts.and.ogre.bow.(i.would.even.fight.maxed.60atk.pures.in.maxed.gear..they.would.all.run.because.of.my.risk.and.at.the.same.time.risking.1m.I.could.easily.kill.them)
You.really.dont.need.robin.hats.or.ava.to.hit.good.with.darts.or.comp.bow.

The.only.reason.to.use.them.was.that.they.were.slightly.better.and.ava.costs.like.500k.and.robin.set.like.100k.so.why.not.But.in.reality.using.them.made.little.to.no.change.

even.more.why.use.them.while.no.other.rangepures.were.
There.were.90%.pures.without.robin.or.ava.I.doubt.they.were.all.too.poor.to.afford.600k.set.They.really.didnt.contribute.anything.towards.fighting.vs.melee.pures.
You.could.fuck.them.up.with.darts.ogre.and.javs.while.having.little.to.none.gear.

hcbow.was.automatic.lose.when.dead...I.dont.think.that.it.should.rise.more.in.price.to.shoot.bolts.
Bolts.as.pure.was.for.fun.and.it.was.risky.but.at.the.same.time.pretty.rewarding...tho.darts.and.ogre.bow.would.still.put.up.a.huge.fight.against.cbow.maybe.even.a.better.fight.that.cbow.would.ever.do.so.


again.idkidkidkidk.

but.to.me.it.seems.that.darts.should.hit.fucking.shit.and.be.garbage.when.youre.using.no.gear...same.with.other.ranged.items..but.on.the.same.time.wtf.can.you.really.add.to.pures.to.make.them.hit.more?Gearwise.

thomy.should.probably.nerf.every.ranged.weapon.heavily.when.used.with.no.bonuses...make.robin.and.other.ranged.gear.pretty.rare.and.give.them.good.bonuses.so.you.only.hit.good.with.darts.when.you.use.robin.or.idk.

to.me.it.seems.that.ranged.darts.javs.etc.were.fucking.accurate.on.pures.even.with.not.a.single.item.of.gear.equipt.

so.lets.assume.robin.set.is.like.30m.it.makes.you.hit.good.with.ranged.weapons.as.a.pure.but.without.it.you.hit.garbage.so.you.can.fight.other.people.without.risk.fairly..And.you.couldnt.fight.against.people.who.risk.more.and.actually.hit.better.than.them.

So.kids.with.no.risk.couldnt.fuck.up.pures.with.good.armour.And.at.the.same.time.if.you.use.a.good.ranged.armor.you.can.fight.against.melee.pures.and.you.both.risk.alot.and.have.a.fair.chance.of.winning.the.fight.

but.then.again.theres.gmaul.that.hits.pretty.good.with.no.gear.so.you.would.have.to.change.melee.to.same.logic.so.dds.no.gear.wouldnt.hit.30-30.so.often.only.when.used.with.good.bonuses...that.would.fuck.up.the.game.and.make.it.more.like.that.people.with.wealthy.bank.have.an.edge.in.wild...BUT.THEN.AGAIN.they.wouldnt.have.that.edge.against.people.who.risk.same.and.have.same.bonuses.

BUT.THEN.AGAIN.people.would.quit.pking.cause.atm.wild.is.pretty.fucking.easy.for.pures.to.make.bank.cause.you.can.rekt.people.with.risk.ez.without.risking.over.1m


idk.im.not.gonna.suggest.anything.im.just.gonna.say.1.thing.

pures.are.pussies.you.are.all.punch.of.whining.fucks.who.cant.take.what.you.have.and.turn.it.into.profit.for.yourself.
you.all.expect.a.emps-scape.balance.from.wild.but.you.cant.have.it.because.emps-scape.didnt.fucking.have.javs.claws.oridkfk.

you.cant.have.that.era.back.when.pure.risk.fights.were.against.people.risking.alot.and.k0ing.with.gmaul.

eworld.has.given.you.soooooooofucccccckingmuch.but.you.still.whine.Back.in.scape.we.fought.against.maxed.mains.while.being.gmauler.pures.and.k0ing.them.with.gmauls.NOW.YOU.HAVE.JAVS.CLAWS.AND.THIS.OTHER.SHIT.AND.YOU.CANT.EVEN.KILL.ANOTHER.PURE.
My.first.acc.was.gmauler.I.used.to.fish.like.god.knows.howmany.hours.a.day.to.get.best.set.for.my.pure.then.I.went.to.wild.died.and.repated...I.went.fishing.again...to.get.risk.fights.




Anything.above.this.line.was.a.random.thought.not.my.suggestion..

to.all.pures:
-buy.2.javs.and.comp.bow
-go.to.wild
-wait.till.someone.with.high.risk.comes
-log.in.under.him.from.world2
-jav.him.and.compbow.to.finish
-I.guarantee.he.cant.even.react
-loot.maxed.pure.set
-ez50m
-go.to.duel.area.stake.your.50m.and.lose.it
-come.to.forums.to.cry.how.uneven.purepking.is

Loljk.I.can.tell.thats.what.most.of.you.did.
Fuckingpkers.only.whine.while.having.0.ideas.how.to.fix.your.own.wild.that.you.so.much.love.
dont.see.any.pkers.in.feedback.thread.giving.feedback.and.ideas.only.fucking.whining.on.shoutbox.

the.only.2.things.that.I.can.see.100%.are

1)javs.ogre.dbow.darts.bolts...were.all.fucking.op.on.pures.while.not.having.any.gear.
2)I.honestly.wouldnt.really.change.anything.heavily...But.if.you.want.to.make.avas.and.robinsets.more.expensive.you.have.to.remember.that.darts.and.all.the.other.ranged.weapons.work.fucking.well.without.them.So.people.wont.jump.right.into.investing.into.them.cause.they.are.useless.But.if.you.randomly.give.them.even.bigger.bonuses.like.I.previously.said.ranged.will.get.more.op.
3)pures.are.dipshits.most.of.them.literally.have.1.account.and.its.their.pure.they.know.nothing.about.the.game.but.whine.the.most.Our.combat.and.pk.system.could.be.worse...you.can.pk.shittons.a.day.being.a.pure.when.theres.people.to.fight.in.wilderness..you.can.make.alot.of.bank.doing.it.I.doubt.people.dont.pk.because.combat.system.sucks.its.our.playercount.that.sucks...And.our.playercount.doesnt.suck.because.of.our.combatsystem...

also.this.topic.goes.over.my.head.while.trying.to.answer.it.from.a.purepker.viewpoint.while.not.pking.anymore.You.shouldnt.take.it.seriously.but.maybe.its.time.to.wake.up.pures.and.try.find.solutions.to.your.own.game.because.you.are.the.players.that.need.it.the.most.and.see.its.effects.every.fucking.day
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 12:41:03 am by Drugs »
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Offline Someone12116

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 08:40:01 am »
-snip-

The problem may lie in how defense is calculated. (defense level) x (defense bonus) = (total defense) is just a dumb way to do it. That means, if one has 99 defense and wears no armor, he has absolutely no defense bonus. Now look at this from pure aspect: having 2 defense levels instead of 1 DOUBLES your total defense. Having defense level of 1 in Emps does jack shit, making people with crap gear hit tons on other pures.

Importance of armor should also be rethought (look at max hit):


Mary

Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 10:53:56 am »
-snip-

The problem may lie in how defense is calculated. (defense level) x (defense bonus) = (total defense) is just a dumb way to do it. That means, if one has 99 defense and wears no armor, he has absolutely no defense bonus. Now look at this from pure aspect: having 2 defense levels instead of 1 DOUBLES your total defense. Having defense level of 1 in Emps does jack shit, making people with crap gear hit tons on other pures.

Importance of armor should also be rethought (look at max hit):

Calculating defense bonus like (def level) + (def bonus) = (total defense), makes more sense i think. Your def level obviously gives equal bonus to level to all combat styles. Your defense should mainly come from armour (about 250 for bandos equipment + 99 bonus from 99 defense) and the ability to equip higher armour with level.
Would need some nerfs to monsters all around though (high level monsters will be alot stronger)

Offline Charr

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 02:31:26 pm »
Lowering supply isn't necessarily gonna increase demand nor prices. It will work on morrigan's axes and javelins but it won't on things that aren't sinked. There are already a crap ton of dbows, comp ogres, robin sets and avas in the game. Pkers tend to sell their loot so they'll circulate pretty well, I don't think it's gonna bring the price down if we just decrease the amount coming in. We'll need to increase the amount going out as well.

You could take part in discussing nerfs because there's ways to nerf stuff while keeping in mind that it doesn't need that in pvm. Like how zs got the anger effect.

#fullcombatsystemreworkagain #itemsinkspls #pureshaveneverbeenbalanced
;

Offline Someone12116

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 02:59:21 pm »
The point of lowering supply isn't to increase demand, but to make them match. Also, do not forget stakers and good PKers: they work as an item sink, storing metric shit tons of items. If Helari's bank, for example, got dropped in a one big drop party, everything would become completely worthless. There is simply way too much item coming into the game.

I would completely like to get rid of the whole 'nerf mentality'. It does nothing but spread negativity inside the community. Nerfs won't fix game mechanics.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:10:08 pm by Someone12116 »

Offline Charr

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 03:29:14 pm »
The point of lowering supply isn't to increase demand, but to make them match. Also, do not forget stakers and good PKers: they work as an item sink, storing metric shit tons of items. If Helari's bank, for example, got dropped in a one big drop party, everything would become completely worthless. There is simply way too much item coming into the game.

I would completely like to get rid of the whole 'nerf mentality'. It does nothing but spread negativity inside the community. Nerfs won't fix game mechanics.
Items sitting in someone's bank aren't items sinked. I get that those items aren't circulating, but they're still in the game. Just because all of the lanties are sitting in helari's bank doesn't mean they don't exist. We need actual item sinks.

Replace nerf mentality with balance mentality.
;

Offline Keiskelar

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 08:32:28 pm »
mary correct's Charr

and yeah 10/10, I totally agree



You don't get postcount in Off-Topic Section btw.

#Joshiee

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity,
and I’m not sure about the universe."
- Albert Einste
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Offline Someone12116

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 08:42:11 pm »
The point of lowering supply isn't to increase demand, but to make them match. Also, do not forget stakers and good PKers: they work as an item sink, storing metric shit tons of items. If Helari's bank, for example, got dropped in a one big drop party, everything would become completely worthless. There is simply way too much item coming into the game.

I would completely like to get rid of the whole 'nerf mentality'. It does nothing but spread negativity inside the community. Nerfs won't fix game mechanics.
Items sitting in someone's bank aren't items sinked. I get that those items aren't circulating, but they're still in the game. Just because all of the lanties are sitting in helari's bank doesn't mean they don't exist. We need actual item sinks.

Replace nerf mentality with balance mentality.

I'm not talking about the lanties and rest of the rares. Take a loot at this picture, for example: http://i57.tinypic.com/hu23oz.png

He has more z spears than there are people online at the moment I'm posting this. If he gave out one 3rd age magic set to each person who uses magic in Wilderness or against bosses, he would have leftover sets left in his bank. During our peak times when we have 250 players online, I bet we don't even have 43 individual players online who could afford to buy one of his ags's even then. If his 6B+ cash was divided among 250 players, everyone would get over 25m!

There is way too much supply, it should be reduced. What's the point of going to kill bosses, PKing or do anything in general if it is impossible to sell the loot you get?

Offline Charr

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 08:58:16 pm »
What's the point of going to kill bosses, PKing or do anything in general if it is impossible to sell the loot you get?
#WhyWeNeedItemSinks
;

Offline Drugs

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 09:17:22 pm »
I.doubt.Helari.can.even.get.cleaned..He.can.just.double.his.previous.loss.on.another.stake.and.eventually.win.lol.

Imo.bossing.was.only.worth.in.this.server.when.I.joined.for.the.first.time.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:24:43 pm by Drugs »

Offline Someone12116

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 09:26:53 pm »
What's the point of going to kill bosses, PKing or do anything in general if it is impossible to sell the loot you get?
#WhyWeNeedItemSinks

The thing is, those only work temporarily. Use existing items to get even more powerful items -> everything will get even more easier AND items become ultimately even cheaper.

When was the last time you took a look at RS?

Offline Charr

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 10:22:10 pm »
The thing is, those only work temporarily. Use existing items to get even more powerful items -> everything will get even more easier AND items become ultimately even cheaper.

When was the last time you took a look at RS?
I don't think I said anything about the way those items would be sinked, did I?
;

Offline Fate

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Re: Ranged isn't necessarily OP
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 01:48:56 am »
Otto is correct.

Item sinks are not a long-term solution.  Drop rates and NPC difficulty are.

You sink items and simultaneously nerf drop rates/buff NPC's for an immediate and sustainable effect, or you don't sink any items but still nerf drop rates/buff NPC's for a delayed but sustainable effect.

A sink alone won't solve problems; it's the equivalent of sweeping dust under the rug.


@Charr, you've been incessantly preaching about adding item sinks for months, but I have yet to see you make a valid and thorough suggestion as to HOW items should be removed.  It's useless to say we need something but do nothing about it.
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