We were having a little discussion about weapon accuracy, damage per second (referred as DPS from now on, or dmg/s) and bunch of stuff regarding combat and weapons on Discord with Thomy, Charr, JP and I. Currently the average hit of any weapon is [maxhit] / 2. So if your whip's maxhit is 40, on average 100 hits total will deal 2000 damage, because the average damage per hit is 20. This was confirmed by Thomy and I kinda figured this out last week when testing some DPS stats by myself on ranged weapons.



That's pretty straight forward. Next we divide that by the attack speed of the weapon so we can get base DPS of a weapon. Base DPS is affected by accuracy and enemy defense, which then gives the real DPS, but Thomy has not given any info on it so I'm not able to calculate it, and because of that I'll be using the base DPS stats when comparing weapons along with average hits. So for the whip in the previous example we calculate this:


And the general formula is this:


Now lets get into a few actual in-game cases. I will not use potion or prayer boosts for these calculations. First I will be comparing Elemental whip, Zamorakian spear, Gladiator maul and Anger Baxe with the large monster bonus.

Ele whip's base DPS is 7.00, ZS's is 6.29, Gladiator Maul's is 5.88 and Anger Baxe's is 7.67. The accuracy order goes ZS > Baxe > Maul > Whip. However the accuracy of Maul and Whip will be equal with Dragon defender equipped.

The general trend here is that the slower the weapon is, the lower its base DPS is. The only exception to that rule is Anger Baxe, which is simply ridiculous. The real DPS you will be dealing against monsters is affected by your accuracy and the defense of the enemy. Against low level monster the higher base DPS weapons will obviously be better, but as the defense of the monster goes up, the slower weapons are supposed to be better. That's still isn't as simple as that because monsters's defense can be reduced upto 50% with Statius warhammer and Bandos godsword specs. And once the defense goes down again, the faster weapons with higher base DPS will do better. Faster weapons also get more hits in a specific time frame. Whip hits 24 times in a minute and ZS hits only 17 times in a minute. High attack speed is the reason dragon darts are extremely powerful even though their accuracy and damage are low compared to everything else.

Other problem I have with the current system is that slow and high-hitting weapons do not hit as high as they should be hitting. Accuracy doesn't increase your chance to hit high, it only increases your chance to hit anything higher than 0.

Dharok's set's maxhit is 94 with ovl, piety and this setup. The average hit is supposedly 47 and your accuracy gets reduced drastically by opponent's armor. That all sounds good and all but still there has been bunch of feedback on Dharok's hitting hardly anything. A more detailed post about Dharok's can be found here by Drugs: https://emps-world.net/forum/index.php?topic=19855.msg155019#msg155019

Dark Bow hits even higher with its maxhit being 104 with ovl, piety and this setup. Despite this and the supposed average hit of 52, I don't think any PKer would actually recommend the weapon because in reality it hits jack shit. Hits above 50 happen very rarely and thus the weapon is really rarely seen used.

What I would like to see added is more emphasis on hitting higher when using weapons slower than 3.0s attack speed. Whips and anger baxe and mace are perfectly fine melee weapons, but everything slower than that is pretty meh. Hitting low on a slow weapon is way more punishing than it is on fast weapons since you get to attack at a way higher rate using whips for example. Maybe make the average hit of slow weapons 3/4th of the maxhit? Maybe 3/5th? Hitting a 0 will still be punishing but at least when you hit, you should hit high as one would expect.

I am NOT suggesting to increase any max hits for the weapons mentioned above. I just want to see them hitting a bit more in average than currently.



There's also some individual weapons that currently perform pretty bad, at least in my opinion. They are Godbows, Anger sword and spear and Obsidian (and Dragon) claws. Those could use some tweaking to bring them on par with other weapons.

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idk wat do u think?

Got to say you are an amazing magic frog

Thanks a lot for this. I'll see to get a toolkit done with which everyone can inspect the dps of every weapon. I'll also give some examples. Accuracy having an impact on getting higher hits more often could be a good solution for newer weapons, because they won't kill the PvP aspect and improve PvM only. However, I've already previously discussed and talked about it with Martin and haven't been a too big fan of it. If not done properly, everything would be overpowered.

Good thread.

The "scaling" of accuracy doesn't even have to be that huge for certain weapons to actually become useful. Even if it's a small damage increase to the average hit it would have a very big impact. It shouldn't be that much of a problem to do properly.

The dps testing toolkit is going to be the most important part of this. I hope it will include combat skill levels, gear, pots and prayer as well as the ability to calculate your setup's dps vs another setup. The amount of knowledge it would give players is huge.

Glad it's being discussed by people that actually know a fair bit about the combat system.

I think claws are fine as they are. A minor accuarcy buff could come handy but considering the price of the item I don't think they should be buffed. (Obby claws should be doing more damage against melee.) Angers' shouldn't be outclassing Zammy spear or Gladiator maul, should be on the same level (while killing big monsters) at least looking at stat requirements.

After the combat triangle update same class fights have become really dull because you barely hit anything. I really like the dharok buff but the accuarcy is so low, when risking below 10hp you actually do damage once out of 10 times. Also godswords have kind of fallen off for the same reason.

Magic shortbow and seercull are crazy strong. God bows are fine I think, they are slower but have higher accuarcy and range so I think that evens it.

Also magic seems to be splashing a loooooooooooooooot. I get it that it should be hard to mage a ranger but splashing 5-6 times in a row is kind of nonsense I think.



All this from a pkers perspective.
I'll most likely edit this/new reply in the evening.

Also magic seems to be splashing a loooooooooooooooot. I get it that it should be hard to mage a ranger but splashing 5-6 times in a row is kind of nonsense I think.

Can I get a concrete example on that (your gear + enemy gear)? Range is supposed to have superior bonuses against magic, which results in you splashing most of the time.

Magic shortbow and seercull are crazy strong. God bows are fine I think, they are slower but have higher accuarcy and range so I think that evens it.

That actually reminds me that back when ironman mode came out, I saw ppl soloing Kree'arra with Magic shorbows lol. Maybe if we consider attack speeds of 2,5s and 3,0s average speeds, anything faster than that would have smaller average hit than maxhit/2, and everything slower than that would have higher average hit than maxhit/2. Idk if shifting average hits like that for specific attack speeds is even possible, I'm just a dumb guy thinking of possibilities.

Quote from: Earl on October 16, 2017, 09:10:24 am

Magic shortbow and seercull are crazy strong. God bows are fine I think, they are slower but have higher accuarcy and range so I think that evens it.

That actually reminds me that back when ironman mode came out, I saw ppl soloing Kree'arra with Magic shorbows lol. Maybe if we consider attack speeds of 2,5s and 3,0s average speeds, anything faster than that would have smaller average hit than maxhit/2, and everything slower than that would have higher average hit than maxhit/2. Idk if shifting average hits like that for specific attack speeds is even possible, I'm just a dumb guy thinking of possibilities.

Found a bug in their accuracy calculation... they're 25% too accurate right now... Is getting a fix. I could imagine shifting the distribution more to the maximum hit depending on your accuracy bonus. That'll count for all weapons though and will likely have quite a big impact on the game. It'll make dps in general much higher.

Quote from: Earl on October 16, 2017, 09:10:24 am

Also magic seems to be splashing a loooooooooooooooot. I get it that it should be hard to mage a ranger but splashing 5-6 times in a row is kind of nonsense I think.

Can I get a concrete example on that (your gear + enemy gear)? Range is supposed to have superior bonuses against magic, which results in you splashing most of the time.

Max mage + overload + piety vs high end range gear + mage protect. You even splash on black dhides when using the same setup.

Quote from: Thomy on October 16, 2017, 12:54:00 pm

Quote from: Earl on October 16, 2017, 09:10:24 am

Also magic seems to be splashing a loooooooooooooooot. I get it that it should be hard to mage a ranger but splashing 5-6 times in a row is kind of nonsense I think.

Can I get a concrete example on that (your gear + enemy gear)? Range is supposed to have superior bonuses against magic, which results in you splashing most of the time.

Max mage + overload + piety vs high end range gear + mage protect. You even splash on black dhides when using the same setup.

Assuming both players had max gear setup (third-age, fury, ring of stone, prayers + ovls) I was able to extract following values:

• Hitting with magic on third-age range: 34% hit chance
• Hitting with magic on black d'hide: 55% hit chance
• Hitting with magic on third-age mage (same setup for both): 50% hit chance.
• Hitting with magic on third-age melee: 70% hit chance.

That pretty much sums up the point of the combat triangle... You'll have a hard time beating an opponent that counters your combat style completely. One could now argue if this is good or bad, but I'd say it's fine that way. You can get an advantage in the fight if you bring a melee weapon.

Also, if you're not wearing a staff... your magic accuracy goes below 20%. That means you literally splash on your opponent most of the time.



On-topic: I'll get dps and accuracy meters ready for the next update before trying tweaking the system. I've already done tests with accuracy affecting your max hit more often being high, but I'm not yet satisfied with the result.

This is nice to hear.

I do understand the counters and combat triangle, but would still want to see at least a freeze once every 3 casts so I could switch for dps.





currently bridding in barrows with protection prayers on and legit getting fucked by dhide and abby bow