Could the price range for the crystal also change? They're currently the only item with a price range of 35M(?!), on an item that has really: a 1 to 250 chance of drop. Which, excluding "Old Schools", not only does it have a greater drop rate than a Rod, it is also has a 15M greater price range than the Rod itself. This is aside the whole fact that it is degradable, which is even more absurd to place the item at such a high price of 15M to begin with, having that the item though new, it is still relatively a cosmetic and again... degradable. And for it to be weaker than the current most used dark/hunter's/god bows, which is fine, it really doesn't need to be priced that high, less with a price range so large! I'm okay with paying 30M ea. just as long as the price range is within 30-35M .
Either way, the price range is too large for an item that serves as a cosmetic and that no one would be willing to sell that easily at 15M when they could just as easily sell it for 50M(!?).

Did you even take into account that these are new? They're new, so they don't have a set price. They're new, so there aren't very many of them, so they're gonna be expensive. The pricelist only has a price on them based on a few sales, it's gonna be high because certain people want the new items immediately and have a lot of money to throw away. The crystals will go down after a while, as with literally every single item that is newly released. You just need to wait a while.

Serves as a cosmetic? Elemental whip beats out any other one handed weapon by quite a lot. +13 accuracy and +12 bonus from using the crystal on the whip, that's almost an extra strength amulet (t). It's a significant bonus over regular whip.

Rayray I hope you realize it's impossible to set the price of an item that is barely up for sale. It depends on the few amount of players that put one up for sale how much they ask, that can be anywhere between 20m or 100m and others will probably still buy it.

So essentially apply Hayek-theory, ight.

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 05:23:17 pm

Could the price range for the crystal also change? They're currently the only item with a price range of 35M(?!), on an item that has really: a 1 to 250 chance of drop. Which, excluding "Old Schools", not only does it have a greater drop rate than a Rod, it is also has a 15M greater price range than the Rod itself. This is aside the whole fact that it is degradable, which is even more absurd to place the item at such a high price of 15M to begin with, having that the item though new, it is still relatively a cosmetic and again... degradable. And for it to be weaker than the current most used dark/hunter's/god bows, which is fine, it really doesn't need to be priced that high, less with a price range so large! I'm okay with paying 30M ea. just as long as the price range is within 30-35M .
Either way, the price range is too large for an item that serves as a cosmetic and that no one would be willing to sell that easily at 15M when they could just as easily sell it for 50M(!?).

Did you even take into account that these are new? They're new, so they don't have a set price. They're new, so there aren't very many of them, so they're gonna be expensive. The pricelist only has a price on them based on a few sales, it's gonna be high because certain people want the new items immediately and have a lot of money to throw away. The crystals will go down after a while, as with literally every single item that is newly released. You just need to wait a while.
Serves as a cosmetic? Elemental whip beats out any other one handed weapon by quite a lot. +13 accuracy and +12 bonus from using the crystal on the whip, that's almost an extra strength amulet (t). It's a significant bonus over regular whip.

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

CB-Level 450 Monster
I'm only averaging about 5-6 kills a trip

Nothing new that combat levels of monsters make absolutely no sense lol. You can solo more GWD bosses per trip and they are around level 600.

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

There is quite a big difference between VLS and elemental whip, the speed. Elemental whip has the speed of a regular whip, vls is way slower. The estimate is based on the first few sales, which are always high for new items. The first few spirit shields were sold for over 400m for example, yet each and every one of them is at least below 120m right now. Hayek theory? This is simple supply and demand, basic economics. A new item has next to no supply, therefore the price is likely to be high.

EDIT: Explaining what you're saying for the people that don't have the knowledge leaves you looking a lot smarter. Do recommend, 10/10. Pretty sure a good 80% of us don't know what the Hayek theory is.

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 06:34:16 pm

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

There is quite a big difference between VLS and elemental whip, the speed. Elemental whip has the speed of a regular whip, vls is way slower. The estimate is based on the first few sales, which are always high for new items. The first few spirit shields were sold for over 400m for example, yet each and every one of them is at least below 120m right now. Hayek theory? This is simple supply and demand, basic economics. A new item has next to no supply, therefore the price is likely to be high.

EDIT: Explaining what you're saying for the people that don't have the knowledge leaves you looking a lot smarter. Do recommend, 10/10. Pretty sure a good 80% of us don't know what the Hayek theory is.

You have google...? Also Hayek-theory is saying "economy will fix itself". SORRY I thought this was a more knowledgeable audience. Either way, why would attack speed matter when you have someone using a stronger armour that is likely to have greater accuracy than a "faster" whip, just manage your "safing" supplies and win/pvp...PVM WHO CARES ABOUT SPEED most of the NPC's do not heal.(I've used VLS for pvm it's not that bad..) Also that just sends the whole pricing to the players and really would mean that when introducing any item there really seems a lot planning still left to be done. GG Eco :3

Quote from: Charr on October 03, 2015, 08:13:28 pm

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 06:34:16 pm

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

There is quite a big difference between VLS and elemental whip, the speed. Elemental whip has the speed of a regular whip, vls is way slower. The estimate is based on the first few sales, which are always high for new items. The first few spirit shields were sold for over 400m for example, yet each and every one of them is at least below 120m right now. Hayek theory? This is simple supply and demand, basic economics. A new item has next to no supply, therefore the price is likely to be high.

EDIT: Explaining what you're saying for the people that don't have the knowledge leaves you looking a lot smarter. Do recommend, 10/10. Pretty sure a good 80% of us don't know what the Hayek theory is.

You have google...? Also Hayek-theory is saying "economy will fix itself". SORRY I thought this was a more knowledgeable audience. Either way, why would attack speed matter when you have someone using a stronger armour that is likely to have greater accuracy than a "faster" whip, just manage your "safing" supplies and win/pvp...PVM WHO CARES ABOUT SPEED most of the NPC's do not heal.(I've used VLS for pvm it's not that bad..) Also that just sends the whole pricing to the players and really would mean that when introducing any item there really seems a lot planning still left to be done. GG Eco :3

Higher Damage doesn't always make a weapon better. The ability to hit faster with a weapon that has a lower max hit can make it surpass stronger weapons that attack slower. Anger Weapons vs. ZS/Godswords is a perfect example of this.

If you are one of the few people that owns a brand new item, you can basically set the price for it as long as there is at least one person willing to purchase it for your price. The more people that purchase the item for more or less than that first sale essentially create the price range. There is never a set price for anything unless it's something you buy from, say, the General Store or any of those Shops. Crystals did not come into the game with the price tag of, for example, 50M. It happens as plays sell it that its price is eventually formed.

The economy for these items might fix itself overtime, sure, but how can it fix itself when it doesn't have enough sales to give it an economy to begin with.

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 11:21:23 pm

Quote from: Charr on October 03, 2015, 08:13:28 pm

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 06:34:16 pm

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

There is quite a big difference between VLS and elemental whip, the speed. Elemental whip has the speed of a regular whip, vls is way slower. The estimate is based on the first few sales, which are always high for new items. The first few spirit shields were sold for over 400m for example, yet each and every one of them is at least below 120m right now. Hayek theory? This is simple supply and demand, basic economics. A new item has next to no supply, therefore the price is likely to be high.

EDIT: Explaining what you're saying for the people that don't have the knowledge leaves you looking a lot smarter. Do recommend, 10/10. Pretty sure a good 80% of us don't know what the Hayek theory is.

You have google...? Also Hayek-theory is saying "economy will fix itself". SORRY I thought this was a more knowledgeable audience. Either way, why would attack speed matter when you have someone using a stronger armour that is likely to have greater accuracy than a "faster" whip, just manage your "safing" supplies and win/pvp...PVM WHO CARES ABOUT SPEED most of the NPC's do not heal.(I've used VLS for pvm it's not that bad..) Also that just sends the whole pricing to the players and really would mean that when introducing any item there really seems a lot planning still left to be done. GG Eco :3

Higher Damage doesn't always make a weapon better. The ability to hit faster with a weapon that has a lower max hit can make it surpass stronger weapons that attack slower. Anger Weapons vs. ZS/Godswords is a perfect example of this.

If you are one of the few people that owns a brand new item, you can basically set the price for it as long as there is at least one person willing to purchase it for your price. The more people that purchase the item for more or less than that first sale essentially create the price range. There is never a set price for anything unless it's something you buy from, say, the General Store or any of those Shops. Crystals did not come into the game with the price tag of, for example, 50M. It happens as plays sell it that its price is eventually formed.

The economy for these items might fix itself overtime, sure, but how can it fix itself when it doesn't have enough sales to give it an economy to begin with.

There are actually smart people left on Emps. wat

To add to your post, Anger Spear/Sword outdamages Anger Axe/Mace at most bosses because of the high accuracy. This further proves that players should take more than raw damage into consideration when comparing weapons lol

Quote from: Shadowkei on October 04, 2015, 01:18:03 am

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 11:21:23 pm

Quote from: Charr on October 03, 2015, 08:13:28 pm

Quote from: Rayray on October 03, 2015, 06:34:16 pm

Still don't see how the est. of a set price to begin with is so out of reach that you leave it to chance up what it will be.(Hayek-theory) Also the whip once fused with the crystal just becomes a Vesta Longsword equivalent. (with the chance of elemental damage?)

There is quite a big difference between VLS and elemental whip, the speed. Elemental whip has the speed of a regular whip, vls is way slower. The estimate is based on the first few sales, which are always high for new items. The first few spirit shields were sold for over 400m for example, yet each and every one of them is at least below 120m right now. Hayek theory? This is simple supply and demand, basic economics. A new item has next to no supply, therefore the price is likely to be high.

EDIT: Explaining what you're saying for the people that don't have the knowledge leaves you looking a lot smarter. Do recommend, 10/10. Pretty sure a good 80% of us don't know what the Hayek theory is.

You have google...? Also Hayek-theory is saying "economy will fix itself". SORRY I thought this was a more knowledgeable audience. Either way, why would attack speed matter when you have someone using a stronger armour that is likely to have greater accuracy than a "faster" whip, just manage your "safing" supplies and win/pvp...PVM WHO CARES ABOUT SPEED most of the NPC's do not heal.(I've used VLS for pvm it's not that bad..) Also that just sends the whole pricing to the players and really would mean that when introducing any item there really seems a lot planning still left to be done. GG Eco :3

Higher Damage doesn't always make a weapon better. The ability to hit faster with a weapon that has a lower max hit can make it surpass stronger weapons that attack slower. Anger Weapons vs. ZS/Godswords is a perfect example of this.

If you are one of the few people that owns a brand new item, you can basically set the price for it as long as there is at least one person willing to purchase it for your price. The more people that purchase the item for more or less than that first sale essentially create the price range. There is never a set price for anything unless it's something you buy from, say, the General Store or any of those Shops. Crystals did not come into the game with the price tag of, for example, 50M. It happens as plays sell it that its price is eventually formed.

The economy for these items might fix itself overtime, sure, but how can it fix itself when it doesn't have enough sales to give it an economy to begin with.

There are actually smart people left on Emps. wat

To add to your post, Anger Spear/Sword outdamages Anger Axe/Mace at most bosses because of the high accuracy. This further proves that players should take more than raw damage into consideration when comparing weapons lol

So many quotes... Anyways... if the price is not set between a Small range, then why set it at all? If that argument makes any more sense.. And really, if you are to go about killing a npc, the speed at which you kill it (SINCE IT CANNOT HEAL), to me at least, becomes irrelevant. Unless there is 2x exp./ and or have brawlers, then speed does matter. But doesn't the higher raw damage compensate for the "speed" at which you can kill an npc? Thus if it doesn't why does it not hit higher to do so? Even if it means lowering the "speed"/ increase "accuracy".

This feedback topic is about tormented demons; it's not about elemental weaponry nor about the economy.

Please remain on topic, everyone.

if the price is not set between a Small range, then why set it at all? If that argument makes any more sense..

Players demand a price on the pricelist or they won't even think about buying or selling the item at all. Half of the playerbase have ben scammed atleast once because that specific item was not on the pricelist, so we LITERALLY have to add every item or staff gets bothered all the time what it is and how much it is. The price range will be adjusted along shadowkei's logic in due time.

Adding onto that, the droprate of the crystals will most likely be improved + combat tweaked to be less frustrating and shorter, and the price will slightly lower.

This feedback topic is about tormented demons; it's not about elemental weaponry nor about the economy.

Please remain on topic, everyone.

''Concerns with Tormented Demons''

People are concerned on their effect on the economy. How would any of this shit had happened if the demons weren't added into the game? Oh yeah, it wouldn't had. Why make an extra thread for a thing which has been discussed surprisingly smoothly (feedback section is usually filled with nothing but flaming) on this thread?

There is a preexisting topic to contribute to the pricelist; use that.  As for discussing the economic impact of items that aren't even dropped by tormented demons, yeah that is off-topic.  This topic is about specific concerns related to tormented demons (drop table, difficulty, mechanics, requirements, etc.), so get back on topic, please.  Otherwise....

drop table

Drop table -> drop frequency -> number of items entering the game -> impact on economy

Congratulations, you just gave birth to another 5 ''off-topic'' posts by complaining about them (with an off-topic post, of course).