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Offline Eddie1408

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Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« on: February 11, 2016, 04:17:33 pm »
Before we talk about the specific items, I want to make clear that a 'good' weapon is defined as how much it can possibly hit (strength) and how often it lands a hit (accuracy). As soon as one of these factors suck, the whole weapon will suck most likely. Note, that all tests were done in the best gear (focusing on maximum strength bonus), using zamorak, saradomin and super attack potions and piety as prayer.

Now let's talk about the best melee item emps-world has and how strong it is:

Formula for accuracy: attack level x attack bonus

Armadyl Godsword


Max hit: 81
Accuracy bonus using the special attack: 140%
Total accuracy using special attack: 49986.216



Here are the other items in comparism:



Vesta's Longsword:


Max hit: 71
Accuracy bonus using the special attack: 130%
Total accuracy using special attack: 41698.722



Vesta's Spear:


Max hit: 89
Accuracy bonus using the special attack: 150%
Total accuracy using special attack: 55733.76
note: I highly doubt this is actual accuracy of this weapon because we all know this item sucks the most



Statius' Warhammer:


Max hit: 68
Accuracy bonus using the special attack: 130%
Total accuracy using special attack: 41698.722



Korasi's Sword:


Max hit: 74
Accuracy bonus using the special attack: 130%
Total accuracy using special attack: 42076.086



According to this list vesta's spear is the most accurate weapon while vesta's longsword and statius' warhammer are the least accurate weapons.
We all know this is not the case at vesta's spear hitting most often.

Now let's compare this accuracy bonuses with a very high defensive bonus.

Formula for total defensive bonus: defense level x defense bonus



Defense Bonus Melee: 374
Defense Bonus Magic: 308
Total Defense Bonus Melee: 57502.5
Total Defense Bonus Magic: 47355





So what are the chances that these weapons hit?

AGS: 46.5%
VLS: 42%
VS: 49.2%
SWH: 42%
K: 47%

According to this list, well FK this list. We all know armadyl godsword is way ahead of other weapons in the game.

Let's take the chances of armadyl godsword 46.5% and continue.

My suggestion on how accurate the special attacks of these weapons to hit should be is:
AGS: 46.5%
VLS: 43.5%
VS: 49%
SWH: 43.5%
K: 47%


I do not know if there is a special formula for weapons to hit very high more often or not, but it would be only fair, if all weapons had the same chances to hit very high. If there is not such a formula like that, ignore the previous sentence.


Of course there are more factors than just how accurate a weapon is. Here are the other factors to have in mind:


Max Hit:

For me, the max hits of these items in the best gear seems fine.


Special Attack Cost VS Special Ability:

AGS: No changes (perfect state).
VLS: No changes.
VS: 100% instead of 50% (this item will hit the hardest while having the highest cost).
SWH: SWH should have same attack speed as VLS and the special attack should decrease enemy's defense by 20% (max 30% after 2 special attacks).
K: 55% instead of 60% (ring of vigour should allow you the use the special ability twice).


Availability:

AGS: No changes.
VLS: No changes.
VS: No changes.
SWH: No changes.
K: Increase the token cost to 10.000 tokens.


Requirements:

AGS: No changes.
VLS: No changes.
VS: No changes.
SWH: No changes.
K: Attack 80, Strength 80, Magic 80







What do you guys think about these items?
Which items are in a good state and which aren't?
What would you change if you could?


                                                         
Any feedback is welcome :)

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:04:21 pm by Eddie1408 »

Offline Lars

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 05:07:32 pm »
I agree with everything. But how did you come up with those hit chances? Ignoring the fact that there is no way to calculate them in the first place, did you use the formulas from this topic https://emps-world.net/forum/index.php?topic=15801.0 ?


Mary

Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2016, 05:14:27 pm »
This is definitely not how 'good' a weapon is. You also have to keep in mind the special attack costs, how it functions (speed, amount of hits and the accuracy per hit), and the special attack effects (additional effects or raw dmg etc). Not to mention one-handed and twohanded + attack speed, your real attack level and the prayer accuracy modifier (this modifier only applies to your attack level, and not to attack bonus of any weapon, so a weapon with a higher attack bonus does not benefit more from prayers)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:31:57 pm by Mary »

Offline Helpmeplease

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2016, 05:23:58 pm »
I dont think Swh should be in these hits, Becuase its 12m, So it maybe gonna be nice If its like The vls.!



                                                                                                                                                 

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Offline Eddie1408

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 05:46:52 pm »
This is definitely not how 'good' a weapon is. You also have to keep in mind the special attack costs, how it functions, and the special attack effects (additional effects or raw dmg etc). Not to mention one-handed and twohanded + attack speed, your real attack level and the prayer accuracy modifier (this modifier only applies to your attack level, and not to attack bonus of any weapon, so a weapon with a higher attack bonus does not benefit more from prayers)

Attack speed does not matter alot in this case because these are heavy hitting weapons, which means they are meant to deal 'lethal' damage. One-handed weapons deal less damage while being abit faster. I also used the best melee shield for strength bonus to compensate their 'handicap'.

About the formula, I do not know the exact formula. I was told it was 'level' x 'bonus'.
Potions such as brews or super potions get added to your 'level' while prayer bonuses and additional special attack accuracy bonuses get added to 'bonus'.

Even if the false(?) formula was taken, I still used the ags as the basis for everything and replied what I think the other items should look like accuaracy-wise compared to ags.

Special attack costs were modified in 2/5 cases to make these weapons more balanced.


Thank you for your feedback. :)



I dont think Swh should be in these hits, Becuase its 12m, So it maybe gonna be nice If its like The vls.!

This is a suggestion how to buff them. Pvp items all have the same chances to drop, which means it is all about how good their effect is.
SWH was used alot before it got nerfed (20% defence reduction got changed into 10 flat defense reduction).
Buffing this item while adding a limit to how much you can lower the defence max is what makes it viable again (but not op) and results into a higher price.
Also SWH is special in this case because all the other weapons only got increased damage. Damage vs Utility. You choose.


Thank you for your feedback as well :)


Offline Charr

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 11:39:04 pm »
It slightly bothers me that every gear setup is just a tiny bit off max bonus, but i'll let it slide since you used 'very high' instead of 'max'.

A special attack weapon with 100% as a cost will not be used all that much. The general popularity of special attack weapons has to do with their reliability. Take a look at dds, it's inaccurate as hell, yet it's one of the most popular spec weapons. The fact that it can poison brings some utility and you have 4 opportunities to spec.

An increase in token price for korasi is something I wouldn't mind, though changing it's requirements is quite useless.

I know claws were nerfed but should they really be excluded? Gmaul got buffs recently, what about that?
;

Offline Ironman Jack

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2016, 01:24:38 am »
What about other players defense, where does that play into all of this.
Purple since January 2016

Offline Eddie1408

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Re: Melee special attack weapons patch suggestion 2.0
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 02:58:39 pm »
It slightly bothers me that every gear setup is just a tiny bit off max bonus, but i'll let it slide since you used 'very high' instead of 'max'.

A special attack weapon with 100% as a cost will not be used all that much. The general popularity of special attack weapons has to do with their reliability. Take a look at dds, it's inaccurate as hell, yet it's one of the most popular spec weapons. The fact that it can poison brings some utility and you have 4 opportunities to spec.

An increase in token price for korasi is something I wouldn't mind, though changing it's requirements is quite useless.

I know claws were nerfed but should they really be excluded? Gmaul got buffs recently, what about that?

Regarding v spear draining the whole special attack bar, I should mention that the normal max hit of this weapon in the gear used for this post is just 3 hits lower than the zamorakian spear which is used very often as well. Therefore I think this new v spear will not be forgotten that easy. However I do not have a problem with changing the special attack cost to 60-65%. I just want to make sure you cannot hit two consecutive special attacks. :)

Talking about dds, I do think this item is more underrated than inaccurate because the special attack, which is the only reason it is used for on mains, hits often compared to the amount of special attacks you can do at once.

Now that you mention, dragon claws are also in a 'bad' state. In my opinion they should sit in the same boat as the dds, which means only their special attacks should be reliable. I do not know their current accuracy, but buffing them to 43.5% compared to the 46.5% of ags should be fine.

The actual reason why I did not take dragon claws and gmaul into account was because they are considered as 'mid tier' gear regarding to their requirements. Their raw damage output as well as their accuracy combined should never exceed the raw damage output (not counting utility) and accuracy of 'high tier' weapons e.g. ags, pvp weapons and korasi.

I also think changing the requirements of korasi is useless. However raw power is based on requirements due to the combat system we currently have.

I hope this answer makes you my thinking clearer.

Thank you for your feedback. :)



What about other players defense, where does that play into all of this.

The enemy's defense was taken into account by using this gear:


This gear offers a very high melee defence bonus (magic > melee because of the combat triangle) as well as a very high magic defence bonus because of the unique special attack of korasi's sword.

Thank you for your feedback. :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 01:00:49 pm by Eddie1408 »
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