I like how these things always end up getting rejected, because they don't directly target you. It's not complicated at all.

I kind of agree with the pay wall, but it was Thomy's decision and we'll have to live with it.
The scrolls won't be removed, but we could improve their position marginally.

The EC store is lacking items that are sinked and have a constant demand. While these scrolls are not necessary to you, they are vital for skillers, who go for 200/250M achievements.
Doesn't matter how stupid or unnecessary (optional) you think this is, it is reality and there are plenty of these people, me being one of them.

If we were to make them tradable (my suggestion should still be applied), the scrolls would be high in demand for us. That demand wouldn't change much, since the scrolls would be used nearly as fast as they're bought, which means that they wouldn't be stacking up like all the wings etc.
They would become a reliable source of fast cash from donating (which we don't have atm), much better than the current member tickets or wings are, since those items barely leave the game.

It's a very simple idea making donating more viable by basically doing nothing.

I like how these things always end up getting rejected, because they don't directly target you. It's not complicated at all.

I kind of agree with the pay wall, but it was Thomy's decision and we'll have to live with it.
The scrolls won't be removed, but we could improve their position marginally.

The EC store is lacking items that are sinked and have a constant demand. While these scrolls are not necessary to you, they are vital for skillers, who go for 200/250M achievements.
Doesn't matter how stupid or unnecessary (optional) you think this is, it is reality and there are plenty of these people, me being one of them.

If we were to make them tradable (my suggestion should still be applied), the scrolls would be high in demand for us. That demand wouldn't change much, since the scrolls would be used nearly as fast as they're bought, which means that they wouldn't be stacking up like all the wings etc.
They would become a reliable source of fast cash from donating (which we don't have atm), much better than the current member tickets or wings are, since those items barely leave the game.

It's a very simple idea making donating more viable by basically doing nothing.

Sooooo are you against them being tradable or not because before you said that you thought it was the worst idea ever

I'm against making the current scrolls tradable.

There's an easy solution to this however.
First to get rid of these old scrolls, change their length back to 20 minutes (or even less, 10 minutes or so).
Secondly, assign a different item ID to the scrolls in EC store and make these tradable (their duration should stay at 1h per scroll).

I'm against making the current scrolls tradable.

Quote from: Magecrune on January 07, 2017, 05:53:31 pm

There's an easy solution to this however.
First to get rid of these old scrolls, change their length back to 20 minutes (or even less, 10 minutes or so).
Secondly, assign a different item ID to the scrolls in EC store and make these tradable (their duration should stay at 1h per scroll).

Scrolls shouldn't be simply removed without refunding the EP/EC spent on them.

Scrolls shouldn't be simply removed without refunding the EP/EC spent on them.

I haven't said anything about removing scrolls completely in this topic.

You're drawing too much attention to the old scrolls again. They don't matter, my main point was never  about them. But we should still revert the old ones to their initial values (20 minutes).

I'll make it fairly simple to all of you, TLDR version of all the posts:
Main point: New scrolls in EC shop; tradable; duration 1h per scroll
Suggested change: Old scrolls back to 20 minutes

First to get rid of these old scrolls

Then can you please begin making sense in your posts because so far nobody has understood what the fuck you're trying to suggest here. It totally wouldn't be screwing people over who, for example, had spent 50€ on 84 hours of DXP and suddenly it was cut into only 28 hours.

Quote from: Magecrune on January 07, 2017, 05:53:31 pm

First to get rid of these old scrolls

Then can you please begin making sense in your posts because so far nobody has understood what the fuck you're trying to suggest here. It totally wouldn't be screwing people over who, for example, had spent 50€ on 84 hours of DXP and suddenly it was cut into only 28 hours.

After this, I don't get it at all. Not to brought hate on myself, but somehow if people has solutions/ideas why not reply those implications instead of arguing over and over and get no where? How come after seeing all I saw from players around writing in suggestions & ideas topics was just arguing and no feedback with some additions to suggestion?
Magecrune made it simple already. He said 20 minutes scrolls could be brought back if they were made tradeable, while those scrolls(8183 or something around that) that are already in game would receive different item ID or/and maybe different icon in game and remain the same NOT tradeable. How hard is that?

Quote from: Someone12116 on January 12, 2017, 07:20:05 pm

Quote from: Magecrune on January 07, 2017, 05:53:31 pm

First to get rid of these old scrolls

Then can you please begin making sense in your posts because so far nobody has understood what the fuck you're trying to suggest here. It totally wouldn't be screwing people over who, for example, had spent 50€ on 84 hours of DXP and suddenly it was cut into only 28 hours.

After this, I don't get it at all. Not to brought hate on myself, but somehow if people has solutions/ideas why not reply those implications instead of arguing over and over and get no where? How come after seeing all I saw from players around writing in suggestions & ideas topics was just arguing and no feedback with some additions to suggestion?
Magecrune made it simple already. He said 20 minutes scrolls could be brought back if they were made tradeable, while those scrolls(8183 or something around that) that are already in game would receive different item ID or/and maybe different icon in game and remain the same NOT tradeable. How hard is that?

But the scrolls that were previously rewarded for EP ARE THE EXACT SAME ITEMS as the ones that can CURRENTLY BE DONATED FOR. How will you not screw donators over by diving the DXP duration by 3? I don't see how screwing over people that have donated for DXP in the past will suddenly make donating more appealing? It doesn't.

Sorry for being again, so off-topic, but...
As I mentioned before Otto, best thing is to give either feedback with addition to suggestion or only disagree with simple "why?" instead of all this fuzz. It usually gets us nowhere and it's better to discuss in "General Discussions" then here.
I get YOU where you coming but to me at least, they never been and probably never will be most precious material in game and you CAN actually gain good experience by spending not 10 hours a day, all it takes 1 - 2 hours daily login with a little focus and you're there, if you REALLY want to enjoy some kind of content in game.

Otto, I did touch on this as well, seems that no-one bother to read these:

We could make a week-long announcement to people who donated for them, so they could use theirs in time, without having to deal with the duration decrease.

The change back to 20 minutes doesn't have to be instant, it can even come a month later if needed. It would just level the playing field, removing the additional reward people got from hoarding. If the EC store scrolls are no longer related to these, there's no reason to keep the increased duration.

Even if we don't change the duration on all the old scrolls, not much would change. Most of them are stashed on abandoned accounts or owned by people who have quit. Those people do not need them, which is why they've been abandoned.

Wg Iron, it seems that you too misunderstood me a bit.
Nothing changes about the old scrolls (unless we change the duration at some point).
New scrolls however will have the new id and be tradable, these will be still at 60 minutes.

We could make a week-long announcement to people who donated for them, so they could use theirs in time, without having to deal with the duration decrease.

I don't think that anyone else than you actually plays this game 100 hours a week. Soz

Since my idea was scattered between many posts and caused confusion, I decided to invest some time into creating a simple Pro-Con table for it.
This is a minor change, but the impact is considerable and the best part - it has no downsides.

The idea itself is very simple and very easy to implement.

---

Idea: Tradable 1-hour long DXP scrolls in EC store

Pro-s:

• Highly sinkable item with a high demand in EC store.
• Due to previous reason, fast source of cash via donating.
• Due to previous reason, more people would actually donate instead of risk while trying to illegally rwt for fast cash.
• Less unsinkable items are spawned into the game via donations.
• Ability to access DXP scrolls without actually having to donate. Not including people who cashed in their EP before the update and still had access to them.
• Skilling supplies being sinked more due to the increase of skilling.
• A select group of players is not highly rewarded unlike other ideas.

Con-s:

• So far none compared to our current version.

---

Everything that follows is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL due to the cons.

Idea: Old scrolls back to 20 minutes

Pro-s:

• The unfairness of the initial update is completely removed.
• The exclusiveness no longer exists, since they're available at EC store, while being tradable.
• Players, who had spent most their EP to hoard scrolls, are no longer rewarded via longer duration.
• People would get exactly what they initially bought from EP store. Bear in mind, they were already rewarded by getting a lot of DXP with nearly no effort.
• The old scrolls are sinked 3x faster. This isn't that important, however it will help in the future if complete removal is being considered.

Con-s:

• Players who donated for the scrolls and still haven't used them, would lose 67% of their purchase.
• Could be somewhat avoided by making an announcement that lasts for a period before any changes are applied to the old scrolls.
• Could be also done without the announcement, but in the same manner. A period until changes are applied to old scrolls.

Note: Even if the last idea is added, the damage will not be that extensive, because I'm pretty sure that the scrolls have been unpopular in EC store. I'm afraid that we can't check that but everything indicates to this conclusion. It shouldn't harm anyone in any way if combined with the announcement and delayed change.

The unfairness of the initial update is completely removed

No. There are people who have donated for the current scrolls. Making them last 20 minutes or removing them completely from the game is unfair for that group of people. As long as requesting donations back is a banable offense, people who have donated shouldn't be screwed over in any shape or form. That doesn't make donating seem appealing at all to me, and without donations this game wouldn't even exist. Why would the duration even need a reduction when we could just introduce a new tradeable scroll with a different ID and keep the old ones untradeable at 60 min duration.

Con-s:

• So far none compared to our current version.

The single con the current and the proposed system have is the fact that XP is buyable. People absolutely hate that about RS3. If you look at OSRS, they have gained their 20k players over RS3's playercount with actual fucking content, not with buyable XP.

The single con the current and the proposed system have is the fact that XP is buyable. People absolutely hate that about RS3. If you look at OSRS, they have gained their 20k players over RS3's playercount with actual fucking content, not with buyable XP.

Didn't see anyone complaining about that when member tickets were updated. For a mere 5 million per month you get (in addition to all the other bonuses that member ticket grants) a constant +5% xp. Clearly buyable xp and noone is butthurt. It's not a problem, it's a way of making ec shop and donating more compelling

Quote from: Someone12116 on January 13, 2017, 04:08:43 pm

The single con the current and the proposed system have is the fact that XP is buyable. People absolutely hate that about RS3. If you look at OSRS, they have gained their 20k players over RS3's playercount with actual fucking content, not with buyable XP.

Didn't see anyone complaining about that when member tickets were updated. For a mere 5 million per month you get (in addition to all the other bonuses that member ticket grants) a constant +5% xp. Clearly buyable xp and noone is butthurt. It's not a problem, it's a way of making ec shop and donating more compelling

Membership for more features is a common thing in free-to-play game model. The F2P portion of the game is like a demo version. When you buy membership, you unlock the full game, just when you buy any other game.

Grinding is a big trend in f2p games. That's a perfect opportunity for competition and high scores and such. That's the exact reason why buyable XP is frowned upon in every single f2p game. It ruins the competition, high scores and gives a tremendous advantage for some players. The people that get the biggest advantage are the people who are wealthy IRL. If you haven't already realized, the pay grades aren't exactly the same worldwide. That's where the term 'pay to win' originates. It's not fair in any way.