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Offline Charr

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Let's discuss bossing
« on: December 30, 2016, 03:24:36 pm »
It's common knowledge at this point that most bosses have servere issues, and that a lot of people don't find most of them worth killing. Considering the amount of replies my thread on the economy got, I'd want to have one about bosses as well.

We will be talking about the following subjects:
  • Loot
  • Difficulty & mechanics
  • Requirements & accessability
  • What can be done with <insert boss name here>?
  • Weapon & gear variety
Loot
In terms of loot, bossing is far outclassed by slayer in the long run. In the short term bossing is only better if you're killing a certain boss and recieving good drops. Which doesn't outright prevent people from bossing, granted not everyone likes doing slayer compared to bossing. However it gives people that are out for money and have somewhat of an idea how the game works no reason to kill bosses.

The amount of impact a rare drop has the money you make on a trip should be greater, and the money per trip regardless of your luck should be a little better. I don't really have exact fixes for this, but that's what I would want. I'll leave the rest of that to other people.

And for the love of fucking god, the following drops need to be removed from a lot of droptables: dragon boots, uncut onyx and barrows gloves. Onyx should be made exclusive to the tokkul shop and stars so furies/stones don't become downright unsellable. Dragon boots and bgloves should be limited to one table and one table only. These items could be way more satisfying to get than they are.

Difficulty & mechanics
A lot of boss fights are currently quite a cakewalk as long as you've got decent gear. Boss fights are mostly a matter of dps, getting the boss to deal less dps so you can stay longer and doing more dps to the boss so it dies faster. It's essentially the same as fighting a goblin on a lot of steroids with most bosses, I think we should work to stray from that.

An example of a change in the right direction is corporeal beast's second phase mage attack, it was changed to do a lot of damage if you don't dodge it. It adds quite a bit of risk and a slight skill gap to corp's second phase. If you don't pay attention, you could die. If you dodge it you won't have to eat, which means you don't have to stop attacking. It's got a reward to it, which is how mechanics should work.

Otto really made a point when he said bosses shouldn't require high level gear to kill efficiently. It makes the rewards from the boss necessary to kill it, and that's bad design. You should be able to kill bosses in dragon/black dhide/inf, and you shouldn't compeltely struggle with it. Granted some bosses should require a bit better gear, but if a boss is designed around requiring gwd sets to kill it better be something other than a buffed up goblin.

Boss minions are something I wanna touch on. They're kind of bad, aside from just being a little extra damage they don't do much. Yes, they have their own drops but that's no benefit during the fight. There's just not very much of a reason to them. I'll talk about solutions for this when discussing specific bosses.

Requirements & accessability
This is certainly not the most major issue, however I do think that the requirements for some bosses need to be changed. Ease of access is good for bosses that are intended for beginners. Ease of access is bad or unnecessary for bosses intended at higher leveled/geared players. If a boss is harder to access, it's loot becomes a bit more valuable. KQ is a decent example of this, it being members only has been a factor on the price of it's rare drops. More when talking about specific bosses.

What can be done with KBD?
I'd say currently KBD is quite solid overall. Since it's d'hides were changed to be noted it's become quite a great moneymaker. It's rare drops aren't too awful for it's intended purpose either. I would say KBD is in the best spot in terms of intended purpose and outcome right now.

There is something that can be improved upon; it's location. It's in rimmington dungeon surrounded by a swarm of black dragons. Due to always being targeted by multiple creatures, degradable items aren't an option as they go away too fast. Being forced to protect from melee all the time limits what we can do with KBD in terms of mechanics. Attacking it from a distance also completely nullifies most of what the boss can do to you, and just leaves you to the black dragons (unless you're using the safespot, in which case it's irrelevant).

Let's say we move KBD to it's lair, and we have that lair accessible from the dungeoneering unlocked entrance that it's currently close to. It would make black dragon tasks a lot more convenient, since we won't have to rely on the two that spawn in barb dungeon if we don't wanna be taking KBD's attacks. KBD can get some slight upgrade to it's mechanics, which would give it a bit more flavor. And it could no longer be safespotted.

What can be done with GWD?
God wars need mechanics. The fights are kind of boring if you've been to gwd a few times, this could use some change.

Something simple is to do with minions. If minions are alive, the boss loses 10% of it's accuracy, if the minions are dead, the boss loses 10% of it's defence. It would mean killing the minions is something you have to make a decision on. Having different benefits for groups and duo/solos it could be a nice addition.

A simple mechanic that could be implemented to all bosses is some kind of AoE attack. The boss would say "For Saradomin/Zamorak/Bandos/Armadyl!" and an area would light up/be marked, and the AoE attack would land a couple of gameticks later. This attack would need the same sort of impact as corp's 2nd phase mage attack. To make it different it would do a bit less damage to hitpoints, but would drain prayer.

The altar in GWD needs to be changed. Right now it provides near infinite prayer points, as it's cooldown is reset upon logout. You can just relog after the boss dies and use the altar again. It's actual cooldown also isn't too high. I'd want it changed to be based around your killcount. Restoring a percentage of your total prayer points at the cost of 4 killcount. Higher prayer levels get more out of this, which is also a slight benefit to prayer.

What can be done with KQ?
It attacks with multiple styles which isn't too bad. It's poison could be buffed up, giving antipoison and the poison aura some more use. It's drops are quite fine, aside form the uncut onyx. The hellcat pet could be made a lot rarer. Her protection prayers need to be more significant. To the point where using different styles or veracs is viable.

Her transformation is too slow and gives way too much breathing room for a boss fight. Speed it the hell up.

What can be done with Chronozon?
His spawns don't really do anything if you're praying mage. It might be fun to make them deal damage to the boss when killed. Or they could be removed, that works too.

Remove the onyx, remove the dboots, remove the bgloves. Elemental staff is good enough of a drop.

What can be done with SDC?
First off, the key ring. Making the keys way easier to get is all fine and dandy for people that don't yet have a key ring.. Now I get two keys every time I go for a task in smoke dungeon. It's not that difficult to get your key ring back if you die, you don't really need to be keeping a multitude of keys around. They need another function besides making the key ring. Making them usable on the smoke chest could be done, the smoke chest also needs an update anyways, and it would improve the boss' loot as well since it drops the keys.

It's minions don't really do anything either, they could be given the same treatment as in gwd but maybe with a higher percentage.

Droptable needs improvements, and for gods sake get rid of the bgloves drop.

What can be done with Wildy wyrm?
Claws just need a bloody sink for these to be decent again. Make obby dragons drop an upgrade item instead of obby claws and we're there. Dclaws are consumed every time you die with them in PvP.

What can be done with Corporeal beast?
Two things were done right with this boss. It's mage attack in phase two and it's droptable. Those are both great.

Corp's biggest issue is it's phases. Phase one is a complete cakewalk, all you need to do is pray melee. It's transformation is slow as hell, giving you a ton of breathing room. Phase two could be better as well, the mage attack is all you really have to worry about. Honestly, it would already greatly improve if it was just phase 2 corp. The dark core could be added to make soloing the damn thing actually difficult. Corp should've been the most challenging boss we got, but it fell short.

Put holy elixrs in the droptable and stop having them be a shop item. It's unnecessary.

That's all I have to say for now. Feel free to post your own thoughts on the topic.
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Offline Someone12116

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2016, 05:25:03 pm »
Chronozon - decrease health to like half of what it currently and make it actually deal damage. Currently killing him is AFKing until you've dealt 850 damage. For comparison, GWD bosses in osrs have 255 HP.

GWD - make melee and range more viable. Magic is guaranteed long trips atm (100-300kc), melee barely gets 2 kills a trip and range is somewhere in between of those with onyx bolts

KQ - perfectly fine IMO. Being locked to members only kinda hurts it, since it would be a nice boss for mid-level players.

SDC - fine, imo.

Corp - Oh boys. The first phase is just... why does it even exist? Second phase in fun and stuff and perfectly fine, in my opinion. I would also like to see corp moved in a place where it cannot be safespotted with range/mage. Regular drops should be made a lot better IMO.

Dagannoth kings - remove the charges from the ring imbuements, but on death make only a regular ring drop. In wilderness, make the scroll drop instead of the ring if killed by another player.

Chaos ele, spectrals, revenants - perfectly fine

What can be done with Wildy wyrm?
Claws just need a bloody sink for these to be decent again. Make obby dragons drop an upgrade item instead of obby claws and we're there. Dclaws are consumed every time you die with them in PvP.

Once again, sinking an useless item won't make it more appealing to use. If it's beaten by a 100k dagger in terms of accuracy and damage, you can easily see why nobody wants it. Also, Obby claws are just as bad as D Claws or maybe even worse so why would anyone even want to upgrade them?

The ''there should only be 1 powerful special attack weapon'' mentality of PKers hurts a bunch of weapons in the game, because they're simply too lazy to learn ways to counter multiple styles of PKing. Sure things like Vesta Spear hitting 90 with single spec was OP, but do items need to be nerfed from one extreme to the other?

Dis me 2 cents on the matter.
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Offline Charr

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2016, 05:35:13 pm »
Once again, sinking an useless item won't make it more appealing to use. If it's beaten by a 100k dagger in terms of accuracy and damage, you can easily see why nobody wants it. Also, Obby claws are just as bad as D Claws or maybe even worse so why would anyone even want to upgrade them?
Generally thought they were actually good in PvP. Dclaws are still quite okay on pures as well afaik. May be wrong.

Dds is already confirmed to be recieving a nerf in the next update.

The dragon dagger will receive some adjustments. It's a really powerful weapon, especially its special attack.
;

Offline Someone12116

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 05:52:01 pm »
Dclaws are still quite okay on pures as well afaik.


Maaan, the number of pures is too damn high

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Offline Dabaus

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2017, 05:54:53 am »
Making money is too easy. Killing bosses isnt worth it. Make slayer give boss taskes in higher lvl or make it buyable with slayer points. Give every boss a very rare change to get a pet and make pets untradeable. Minions in boss rooms can be used as source of health. Example, bring guthans. I might start bossing again if there was untradeable pets. Btw would be nice to have pets awailable for non  members :P

Offline Someone12116

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2017, 12:03:51 pm »
Making money is too easy. Killing bosses isnt worth it. Make slayer give boss taskes in higher lvl or make it buyable with slayer points. Give every boss a very rare change to get a pet and make pets untradeable. Minions in boss rooms can be used as source of health. Example, bring guthans. I might start bossing again if there was untradeable pets. Btw would be nice to have pets awailable for non  members :P

Why do you need slayer tasks to go bossing? Slayer tasks are for training slayer, not for getting free DPS with Slayer helm. Bosses are absolutely garbage XP because of spawn times and other people potentially stealing your drops.

Offline Dabaus

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 03:22:02 am »
Making money is too easy. Killing bosses isnt worth it. Make slayer give boss taskes in higher lvl or make it buyable with slayer points. Give every boss a very rare change to get a pet and make pets untradeable. Minions in boss rooms can be used as source of health. Example, bring guthans. I might start bossing again if there was untradeable pets. Btw would be nice to have pets awailable for non  members :P

Why do you need slayer tasks to go bossing? Slayer tasks are for training slayer, not for getting free DPS with Slayer helm. Bosses are absolutely garbage XP because of spawn times and other people potentially stealing your drops.
faster kills=more loot= more ppl bossing. Slayer task just would be encourage to ppl xp would just be extra. Doesnt have to be good xp if ur there for loot anyway. If u dont want boss taskes, dont take them.

Offline Level Down

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 08:21:48 am »
Quote
faster kills=more loot= more ppl bossing. Slayer task just would be encourage to ppl xp would just be extra. Doesnt have to be good xp if ur there for loot anyway. If u dont want boss taskes, dont take them.

Faster kills=more loot= items are not worth shit anymore....
this is not a solution.

Offline Freestuffyay

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 09:27:44 am »
Just adds drops to all those bosses like kolodion's droptable has, so its worth killing even when you dont get rare items

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Offline Ameer

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 11:06:24 am »
Making money is too easy. Killing bosses isnt worth it. Make slayer give boss taskes in higher lvl or make it buyable with slayer points. Give every boss a very rare change to get a pet and make pets untradeable. Minions in boss rooms can be used as source of health. Example, bring guthans. I might start bossing again if there was untradeable pets. Btw would be nice to have pets awailable for non  members :P

Why do you need slayer tasks to go bossing? Slayer tasks are for training slayer, not for getting free DPS with Slayer helm. Bosses are absolutely garbage XP because of spawn times and other people potentially stealing your drops.
faster kills=more loot= more ppl bossing. Slayer task just would be encourage to ppl xp would just be extra. Doesnt have to be good xp if ur there for loot anyway. If u dont want boss taskes, dont take them.

It would be great to complete this

Faster kills = more loots = more people bossing = more items getting into the game = prices start to crash even harder = less people pvming = more people crying about how great the old days were and the prices were great back then

I don't think this would be a good idea at all




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Offline Dabaus

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 03:26:44 pm »
Making money is too easy. Killing bosses isnt worth it. Make slayer give boss taskes in higher lvl or make it buyable with slayer points. Give every boss a very rare change to get a pet and make pets untradeable. Minions in boss rooms can be used as source of health. Example, bring guthans. I might start bossing again if there was untradeable pets. Btw would be nice to have pets awailable for non  members :P

Why do you need slayer tasks to go bossing? Slayer tasks are for training slayer, not for getting free DPS with Slayer helm. Bosses are absolutely garbage XP because of spawn times and other people potentially stealing your drops.
faster kills=more loot= more ppl bossing. Slayer task just would be encourage to ppl xp would just be extra. Doesnt have to be good xp if ur there for loot anyway. If u dont want boss taskes, dont take them.

It would be great to complete this

Faster kills = more loots = more people bossing = more items getting into the game = prices start to crash even harder = less people pvming = more people crying about how great the old days were and the prices were great back then

I don't think this would be a good idea at all
>wants more people to pvm
>complains how there would come too many items in game
???
 If u want more ppl to pvm obv there would come more items ing. Make drop rates higher or re make drop table? Idk

Offline Papa Troq

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 04:47:40 pm »
I basically agree with all of your opinions, hope to see those pvm changes soon.

Offline Pk Range99

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 07:32:50 am »
chorozon definetly needs to be buffed, max range gear and you can just afk and kill him with ease, maybe the minions should have different attack styles so you cant pray against all of em?

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Offline Charr

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Re: Let's discuss bossing
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 01:06:28 pm »
chorozon definetly needs to be buffed, max range gear and you can just afk and kill him with ease, maybe the minions should have different attack styles so you cant pray against all of em?
Yes, because boss fights being goblins on steroids is fun. Damage that has no counterplay is interactive. Straight up buffs to stats have never ever made a boss more fun.
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